tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4021317.post111412104524944281..comments2023-10-17T03:46:54.909-07:00Comments on Karen's Thoughts: Unenrolled Baha'is and Religious IdentityKarenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15915968995957299554noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4021317.post-1114278725955140592005-04-23T10:52:00.000-07:002005-04-23T10:52:00.000-07:00Dear Paul,Exactly. No matter how much we are warn...Dear Paul,<BR/><BR/>Exactly. No matter how much we are warned about the non-authoritative nature of "Kitab-i-Hearsay", it permeates the community -- and in a few specific instances has become "official" doctrine in the sense that other views are considered "non-Baha'i". (e.g. the separation of church and state, and the importance of the individual conscience)<BR/><BR/>I could go on tangentially on this theme, but back to the issue of "official" Baha'i identity vs. self-indentification: When it comes to the Covenant-breaker groups, for Baha'is to follow the official line and insist that there are no Baha'i sects just makes us look ridiculous, when a simple Google search will reveal that there are, indeed, other sects identifying themselves as Baha'i. The idea that these groups are "not Baha'i" is a faith position, and not an objective reality. <BR/><BR/>When it comes to liberal, unenrolled Baha'is, the narrow definition becomes even more obviously prejudicial -- you don't have to be a sociologist to see the difference between official membership and private adherence.Karenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15915968995957299554noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4021317.post-1114264528773317322005-04-23T06:55:00.000-07:002005-04-23T06:55:00.000-07:00Yes, I think that's true - to some extent that ten...Yes, I think that's true - to some extent that tension is there anyway, not just because it's already their in different approaches to theology (Sen and the former Cardinal Ratzinger are both in their way practitioners of theology), but also because that tension, between rigidity/lawgiving and play/speculation is a part of human nature itself (this is that Puer/Senex stuff that Larry has been talking about recently).<BR/><BR/>Basically, the sociological point is that, whatever an organisation says it is "officially", the informal reality of how things works is always different. To take a less controversial example, consider the average medium-sized office. When you turn up there as a new employee, you will probably be given a "structural overview" of the office - who's the manager, who's the money guy, who their PA's are, who is responsible to whom, etc., etc.<BR/><BR/>But, after you've been there a few weeks, you'll start to realise that *really* if you want to get something done in accounts, the best way is not to put a formal proposal in the Mr Bloggs, the accountant, but instead to approach Doris, Mrs Y's efficient secretary, who will make sure that Mr J, the manager, will see it, and give it to Mr Bloggs. (for example) - and I'm sure you know many similar examples from staff-rooms you have known, and everyone else will know that the official organisation sheet of their own place of work should likewise be regarded with a healthy degree of skepticism.<BR/><BR/>The sociological insight is that it is these <I>in</I>formal networks that really govern how our lives work, and that while the official chart might have some relationship with how things works, it will never be the whole story.<BR/><BR/>Like all things academic, it's really just common sense dressed up a bit - and to bring it back to the Baha'i topic, it is one of the reasons why things like CB scare stories ("I got a funny feeling just from touching that CB book"), and common Baha'i ideas about "World Peace by year 2000" have some force, even though they may not have been officially enshrined in proclamations or statements from the institutions...<BR/><BR/>PaulAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4021317.post-1114215188082863812005-04-22T17:13:00.000-07:002005-04-22T17:13:00.000-07:00Marco: I appreciate your position, and your accep...Marco: I appreciate your position, and your acceptance of me as a fellow Baha'i. As far as "sharing thoughts on my personal relationship with Baha'u'llah", I find that more difficult -- since it's more personal -- although this is one reason why I started my other blog. I'm not like Alison, who has left "the world" behind; sorry -- I'm just not there yet.<BR/><BR/>Paul: Well, Paul, that's the thing; I don't know squat about Weber, either, except what I've managed to pick up in context of discussions. I am *no one* when it comes to scholarship, yet I know the difference between a religion's self-perception and official statements by the leadership, and the social reality that one studies. I don't know how I picked up it -- somewhere between majoring in a social science (Economics), and years reading books about early Christianity, maybe. I always liked that "neutral" scholarly voice more than the person who wants to make history sound like a sermon.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, yes, it's weird. No matter how far Baha'i scholars try to shield themselves in these lists from both fundamentalism and liberal dissidence, they just can't manage it. I think because people reflecting both of those views continue to be engaged in Baha'i scholarship. The tensions are there, lurking just below the surface, ready to burst forth any time.<BR/><BR/>Love, KarenKarenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15915968995957299554noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4021317.post-1114213861541754632005-04-22T16:51:00.000-07:002005-04-22T16:51:00.000-07:00Some people on the list objected and quoted the "o...<I>Some people on the list objected and quoted the "official" line from the new official website, apparently not understanding that when you are studying a religion, what is "official" isn't important</I><BR/><BR/>Okay, for a normal internet debate this might be a subtle point. But this is an academic list, and some of these people haven't got as far as Weber yet? This is basic, basic, basic sociology for goodness sake!<BR/><BR/>PaulAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4021317.post-1114182598327894352005-04-22T08:09:00.000-07:002005-04-22T08:09:00.000-07:00As you know, I don’t agree with the things you wri...As you know, I don’t agree with the things you write about baha’i administration. Such public complaints make no sense to me.<BR/><BR/>But, I must say I believe you are a baha’i in your heart. I see you as a baha’i.<BR/><BR/>I just wish more your talent and energy were more focused on teaching the Faith and sharing with us some thoughts on your personal relationship with Baha’u’llah.Marco Oliveirahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17869587541406850153noreply@blogger.com